Thursday, July 12, 2007

Michael Moore on Countdown with Keith Olbermann


  1. Why is there so much complaining about how much money doctors make? Why not go after the dumbbells that swing a bat and hit a ball and make 10 times more than the average guy that saves lives for a living?

    Rock on, down with capitalism! I can't wait to give the reins over to the government and let them make all my decisions for me. So a few thousand people would have to wait in line for 6 months for their chemotherapy while the government pushes papers, we'd all get our bar codes on our heads and push our little red button for our daily biscuit. Wheee.

    : D

  2. It just doesnt happen like that for chemotherapy type things with socialized medicine. In fact under our current system it's more apt to work like that (and does a lot - I know from personal experience).

    The Fire Department, Police Department and United States Mail. We can trust our fires, safety and mail to this concept but not our health?

  3. And no one is attacking a doctor's means of making money.

    Go watch Sicko, he covers that in the movie too with a Doctor in England. The guy is VERY well off.

  4. Where do you draw the line? You think it's bad now? Once healthcare becomes a right and not a privilege, be ready to surrender more and more of your freedom to pay the price.

    I don't think socialized healthcare is the solution to expensive healthcare anyway. I think we need to work toward making existing companies hold people accountable for their health claims and stop the frivolous malpractice suits that are driving up costs.

    When I can't even buy a friggin coffee from McDonalds without seeing a disclaimer about the coffee being hot, I think people have been allowed to work the system for way too long...

  5. What line is there to be drawn? The government has a scared charge to protect it's citizenry, this is an extension of this. Why is it so easy for people in this country to be pro-military defense 100 of times that of other nations and be fine with Iraq not being a line to cross, but this this socialized medicine is somehow so horribly bad that they couldnt do that? We trust them to know who it's right to kill, or punish, imprison and torture but not to at least try to heal?

    We all chip in for FEMA, Foreign aid, roads, etc. why not healthcare? And you're right it would become a right to all tax paying citizens for the money they've kicked into it. Right now the system is ONLY for the PRIVILEGED and barely even for them.

    And please let's all stop with the McDonald coffee burn reference that is so totally and unbelievably misused to try to somehow make it seem that Corporate America is some how being harmed by a few consumers and thus the rest of us have to pay for it.

    Facts about the case:'s_coffee_case

    That woman was horribly injured as the result of McDonald's clear criminal negligence. Next time you melt your genitals off, I hope people talk better about you. Although she was 79 years old and her vagina may have been well outside of it's lifetime warranty or usability prior to the coffee.

  6. It's the principle of the matter, not the specific cases. There are disclaimers on EVERYTHING these days.

    The line that needs to be drawn is exactly what you were talking about - what is the government's responsibility and what needs to be left up to us to obtain for ourselves? How much freedom do you want?

    And we don't all chip in. The top 5% of wage earners pay something like 80% of the taxes in this country. And socialized healthcare would only go draw more taxes, which are only paid by the people that are working and paying for their healthcare now.

    This country was founded on some very basic principles. Freedom. Take your abilities and pursue happiness. Somewhere along the line that foundation was poisoned with the idea that the government owes everybody something. The attitude that everyone is a victim and the big bad government needs to do something to redeem itself for stealing from them. Why do think there is such a hatred of the rich?

    The incentive to work hard and be successful is getting destroyed by this attitude. After all, why put in the effort and try to get anywhere in life when the NEW United States will take care of you? Now we suddenly need to stop telling kids they're flunking, don't let Jimmy know he sucks at football, because you'll hurt his feelings, make everything good and fair so when they get out in the real world and get fired from their job they fall down and never get back up. They curse the country that provides opportunity like nowhere else in the world.

    Wow I am a drama queen. Tee Hee

  7. Woot! More discussion :)

    The government's responsibility is to provide for two things, one it's on welfare and two the welfare of it's citizenry and in that order. It must, sustain and perpetuate itself and sustain and perpetuate the reason for its existence. I dont see why healthcare does not fall into that.

    To slightly quote Dostoyevsky; "You can judge a country by how it treats its poor." And by that stick, this country pretty damn bad. And what turns my stomach is the dichotomy between our poor and our rich.

    With socialized medicine, everyone who pays taxes gets an even chance. This is income taxes and not taxes on wealth. So excuse me if I feel sorry that some actor or CEO who banks $20 million a year has to pay a little more. I really have no sympathy for those people and this "higher tax burden" argument when the 2% of the wealthiest people in this country control something like 98% of all the wealth. It's not the fact that they are rich - it's that they are rich on a scale that would make Solomon blush.

    The man next door to me is dying. Everyday a little more. He's ready to lose a third of his left lung and some days is unable to function at even a 10% capacity. He's just over 50, no one will hire him and no one seems to want to keep him employed because he's a convicted felon and everyday I watch him hurt a little more and a little more. He has no money and no healthcare and then I read that Tom Cruise just scored $50million to reprise his role as some jockstrap in some remake of a remake or some CEO of a companying laying off 100,000's of workers received a $15 million dollar yearly bonus, etc, etc and I can bare to live in a country that would let something like that happen.

    I've seen far too many people suffer and die for no crime other than being poor and I am totally fed up with it. So what if they have to pay a little more, at the end of the year maybe they can write it off on their taxes as "paying for their humanity".

    I dont think when The Great Communicator (Ronald Reagan not Jesus) talked about a "city on the hill" that he envisioned people living in the streets, dying in golden gutters from rancid food and forgotten wars, unable to help themselves and slowly killed by the excess of their fellow men.

    Phew ... pant. Okay I tried to out drama queen you on that one. Geez that took a lot outta me.

  8. "I can't bare to live in a country that would let something like that happen."

    Spelling error ;)

  9. Whee! This brings back memories!

    This maybe is where we agree to disagree I reckon... I believe the core fundamentals that have made our Country the most powerful in the world have been the _opportunities_ it creates, not how the government provides for or takes care of it's people.

    We are a free country - you are free to choose where you work, what religion you want... Free to disagree with your government and free to choose what doctors you visit. Companies thrive when their products are successful because people choose to buy them, not because the government decides which companies will provide which products and how much they profit from sales... There is a group right now that wants to start regulating McDonalds' menu options because Americans are overweight. This is a perfect example of an attempt to turn the government into a big babysitter and not a defender and preserver of freedom.

    Giving the government any more power to make any of these decisions for us creates a bigger government and takes more choices, or freedoms, from it's people. You'll find yourself not being able to go to the doctor that your kids know by first name.. You'll find yourself being forced to undergo unnecessary tests, and your doctor's ability to diagnose will be driven not by what he himself feels is the best procedure, but what the government has decided make the most fiscal sense.

    We need to find a way to reduce healthcare prices and abandon this grand pipe dream that somehow everyone everywhere should be, or can be able to see a doctor when they need to. I hate to see a person suffer as much as anyone. But it's a part of life - there are going to be people that can afford it and people that can't.

    You don't save a starving man by giving him a piece of bread. He will surely be starving tomorrow. But give that man a way to earn a living, and inspire him to work and earn a wage, and show him the opportunity that this great country of ours presents with not much more than inspiration and perseverence, and he may never go hungry again.

    Man, I'm hungry.

  10. By the way... Your comments about the poor? Lets keep things in perspective - the average 'poor' person in our country is rich compared to the standards of other countries.

    Being poor in the United States is largely a _decision_. Trace back the past of a poor person and typically you will find a series of bad decisions that can be attributed to where they find themselves today.

    How many inspirational stories have you seen about very successful people that rose from poverty to accomplish greatness? This is one of the wonderful things about our Country, the land of opportunity. I believe socialized healthcare would do a lot more damage than most people can imagine.

  11. Let's help our poor first and then we'll get to the rest of the world - at least as far as the government's concerned.

    And you're right, they must have made some bad decisions. I guess they'll learn next time as they lie dying. Or maybe their loved ones will learn this valuable lesson from their suffering and death.

    18,000+ Americans die each year from lack of any healthcare or addequate healthcare in this country. In 2001 as many Americans died every 26 days on the road driving as did on 9/11.

    I guess going to war to end the death the terrorists cause is just easier than figuring out how to heal the sick, feed the hungry, cloth the naked and break every yoke. Our light doesnt burst forth like that of the morning much anymore - that's for sure.

  12. How do you propose we help our poor? Encourage private programs to help them get back on their feet? Oh no, we already have that...

    Create an economic environment that provides a means or almost anyone to get a job? Oh, we already have that too. Unemployment is at an all time low right now...

    Some interesting Facts about America's "Poor":

    # Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
    # Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
    # Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
    # The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
    # Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
    # Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
    # Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
    # Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

    Forgive me if I think it is silly to expect the government to fix this "Problem".

  13. Like I said I guess it's just too hard for us to do. Where it's easier to perpetuate the military-industrial complex and wage war.

    I guess all those people who take out first, second and third mortgages on their houses just dont want to have extra money to buy DVD's when they are paying these outrageous medical bills. Or the ones who take donations at local counters for their child, must not want to stop their lavish lifestyle of being able to microwave their food to be bothered to spend that money on their sick child.

    If you dont see it as something the government couldnt or shouldnt fix, that's one thing but to think that they're arent poor people now suffering that could be helped by our greater good is just beyond me.

    And your "facts" are based from a neo-con think take called the Heritage Foundation from 1998.

    And a word about unemployment, they dont still count you as unemployed after you stop receiving unemployment payments in fact they're not even tracked as far as I know.

  14. BTW, I think we might be setting a new comment record for my blog :) WOOT!

  15. And I meant "think tank" not "think take" hehe. Damn unable to edit comments.

  16. I would never say there are no poor people that needs help - that would be an ignorant statement. I am saying that you don't reduce poverty by increasing the size of the government. It NEVER works.

    The economy is very strong right now, largely because tax CUTS have encouraged commerce and produced an upswing. More government involvement in healthcare means more taxes which means weakened economy, and EVERYONE loses.

    You might be able to lend a hand to the minority of poor folks that genuinely wouldn't have been able to get out of their situation, but the overall middle class is going to be affected dramatically. It doesn't make sense.

    Now where is my DAMN TROPHY?

  17. Some reasons to think twice about universal healthcare:

    In a recent Arizona Republic column, State Representative Phil Lopes called for universal health care. But, the Lopes proposal confuses government paid health services with universal health care. As Europe demonstrates, millions go without good health care under government paid systems regularly.

    According to 2004 survey only 22 percent of Spaniards think their universal care system offers “satisfactory” service. It is certainly unsatisfactory that citizens there have to wait months for a simple test like an MRI. In England, patients must wait nearly a year for hip and knee replacements.

    In Spain everyone pays taxes for the universal health care system. There is, however, a select group of people who get to choose. Central government civil servants can opt-out of the public system and have the government pay for their private insurance. 91 percent of civil servants choose private insurance. That is quite an endorsement of the free market’s ability to meet consumers needs better than socialized medicine.

    Health care services need to be accessible and affordable. But, a government take-over of the industry is not the answer.

  18. Almost 300 Americans have died since I made this post from not having any healthcare.

    It's okay to admit that we cant figure it out and that Spain has lowered and then set the bar to what Americans should strive for.

    Both private and universal systems can co-exist in the same scheme as well. There's no reason that if you can afford it you cant go out and get your own insurance and if the insurance is providing adequate coverage you can opt out of the taxes.

  19. In an hour and a half, I have to take my son to the bone doctor for the 4th visit since he broke his arm. It has already cost me approximately $5000. The funny thing is, he does have insurance.

    Unfortunately, almost no doctors in this area take it for some reason. The bone doctor will file for me, but I have to pay up front. I asked them not to file, and here is why: The insurance company (Anthem), in their infinite wisdom, will not send payment directly to a non-PPO doctor. Instead, the payment is returned to the insured who must then settle with the doctor. No big deal right? It is when the insurance policy holder is his mother.

    We are divorced and in the past when I have done this she has claimed to have not received a check. I call the insurance company, and sure enough she DID receive a check. My choices are pay the doctor, file with insurance, and have her get the 4-5K dollars that will come from the insurance company, or not file.

    Fuck you very much insurance company. I can't be the only father with this problem, there are 300 million people in this country.